How do Communist leaders view the reversals their parties have had in West Bengal? What does the Left brigade think about its political future? These are the twin issues Karan Thapar discusses with the General Secretary of the Communist Party of India AB Bardhan.
Karan Thapar: Let me start with a simple question. How devastating a blow have the Left parties suffered in Bengal as a result of the Lok Sabha elections in May and the recent by-elections this month?
AB Bardhan: They had a very serious setback, the entire Left movement; the CPI-M in the meanwhile had become the leading partner of the Left Front and the defeat was a grim reminder of what went wrong with the Left Front.
Karan Thapar: So it is not just a serious set back for the Left Front government, you are saying it’s a serious setback for the whole Left movement?
AB Bardhan: I am saying so. I also say that from what started as something against the Left Front government it is now becoming generally an anti-Left and anti-Communist movement. That is a dangerous trend.
Karan Thapar: How do you interpret what happened? Is this a vote for Mamata Banerjee or as you have suggested a moment ago is this a vote against the Left?
AB Bardhan: I don’t think that is an endorsement of Mamata Banerjee’s policies or programmes because they are not known to the people as yet and I am not sure she knows that herself. It is a vote against the Left, against the performance of the Left Front and against what they should not have done or what they have done.
Karan Thapar: When you bear in mind the fact that as recently as 2006, the four Left parties together got a 3/4th majority, then from that position to this in 3.5 years. It’s a dramatic if not precipitous fall?
AB Bardhan: What a fall indeed it is; I agree with you.
Karan Thapar: Are you embarrassed by it?
AB Bardhan: I am seriously concerned by it because such a fall shouldn’t occur. If the Left Front had functioned as a Left Front, if it had listened to the voice of the people… Some of its partners had not become and had not started thinking that they are for keeps and that they will last forever just because they had been there for three decades. When you start thinking like that you become undemocratic.
Karan Thapar: I want to talk about the reasons that help you understand this incredible sharp fall. Many people are today commenting that it looks increasingly unlikely that the Left parties can win in 2011. Is that some of your minister, Abdul Razak Moula to name one, has publicly said that we are being sent back to the Opposition benches and that’s the reality and we must recognise it. Do you believe that it is now looking difficult if not unlikely for the Left to win again in 2011?
AB Bardhan: No, I don’t want to be a prophet of doom. I think you will see that when the Left Front turns around, if mistakes are corrected and if there is a realisation that what went wrong needs to be sorted. If one realises that one’s lifestyle, behaviour with people and arrogance is given up then people will still be behind the Left because the Left had a program and the Left had done a lot of good things in West Bengal. So that is the reason they were there for three decades.
Karan Thapar: If the false can be put right, the Left can win again, that’s a bit tough isn’t it?
AB Bardhan: Yes it is. But I always believed that Communists are capable of correcting themselves.
Karan Thapar: Let’s talk about what has brought the Left parties to this dismal presence situation. One of the ministers of the Bengal government, the Minister of Panchayat or Rural Development has publicly begun to speak about what he calls nepotism and corruption. Has that played a role?
AB Bardhan: Yes, it has indeed played a role and that cannot be denied but then one must be clear about the dimensions of corruption. Corruption that is there in Karnataka or Andhra Pradesh or for what you see in the Centre, that is not the type of corruption which is there. Corruption has become more widespread particularly among the lower ranks and the middle ranks.
Karan Thapar: In Bengal?
AB Bardhan: Yes, that is what I think because power was exercised in West Bengal in all levels starting right from the Gram Panchayat.
Karan Thapar: So it is at the lower and the middle levels that corruption is most apparent and most widespread in Bengal?
AB Bardhan: Yes, but it is not the wholesale corruption you see.
Karan Thapar: But because this is at the lower and the middle level, it is directly visible to the people.
AB Bardhan: Yes, it is directly visible to the people. For instance, if I am corrupt and if I am constructing a building in Kolkata nobody will notice it, but if I do so in a village where people know what I was before and how I have a big house now then it is noticed. I am surprised that is not noticed by the leaders of the party.
Karan Thapar: So this corruption has been visible to the electorate, it is lent through resentment by the electorate but you are saying the leaders of the party have been blind to it?
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AB Bardhan: Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. To speak now you say about rectification, it’s better late then never. I do believe and I think something good is being done now but I think they should have noticed it much before.
Karan Thapar: In other words this corruption is not recent, it’s been there since the last 15-20 years and it’s been slowly building up?
AB Bardhan: Yes, it has built up since the last 10 years. It should have been noticed before.
Karan Thapar: So there has been a widespread corruption at the lower and middle level for last 10 years and yet the leaders have been blind?
AB Bardhan: Yes, it has been. I would also blame the other parties of the Front for not having brought it to the notice of the main partner.
Karan Thapar: So in other words these corruptions primarily are the local leaders of the CPM?
AB Bardhan: Yes, I still have a lot of faith in the top leaders. I am not trying to cozy upto them but because I know some people who have been ideals and who are Communists for long.
Karan Thapar: But those very top leaders of the CPM in whom you say you have faith are the ones who have been blind to their local and middle level leaders increasingly being corrupt?
AB Bardhan: Why should I blame their blindness? I am saying that we should have brought it to their notice.
Karan Thapar: In other words the three allies of the CPM failed to alert the CPM as to what is happening?
AB Bardhan: Yes, I think so.
Karan Thapar: So everyone is culpable for corruption?
AB Bardhan: Yes, there is a sort of culpability.
Karan Thapar: To what extent in addition to corruption and nepotism has arrogance become a problem? Both arrogance of power or is it overconfidence?
AB Bardhan: It is arrogance which is more important than corruption. Corruption as you say or as I am saying is retail and not wholesale. You can’t put it in hundreds or thousands of crore.
Karan Thapar: So you say arrogance is more widespread?
AB Bardhan: Yes, because if you start thinking then you see the crux of the work – it is you who has done everything. You start directing, you see even cultural and teacher’s committees, corporate societies etc, then you start behaving as if you are the man behind it.
Karan Thapar: The CPM and some of its individuals do behave like that, deciding how cultural committees and other committees will behave and function?
AB Bardhan: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Imposing themselves on people?
AB Bardhan: You are of course putting words in my mouth but perhaps they are very apt. I am being frank. I do not want to be misunderstood nor do I want to become pleasant or want to whitewash things.
Karan Thapar: Is it painful to have to say these things?
AB Bardhan: Very painful I must say. Right from the beginning I want to apologise to those people who maybe hurt but I want them to understand it. We have to rebuild, we have to change and we have to make an effort to come back as a Communist.
Karan Thapar: Your position is that you know that you maybe hurting some leaders of the CPM when you speak the truth but the truth has to be spoken.
AB Bardhan: Yes, truth has to be spoken. There is no point in trying to deceive each other.
Karan Thapar: You are also saying something else by implications given that of the four Left parties in Bengal, the CPM is the biggest. In fact in 2006 it had a majority on its own therefore today the lion’s share of the responsibility for what has gone wrong must also lie with the CPM?
AB Bardhan: That is the logic of life. Those who are the leaders must take the main responsibility and it is they who have to change. I might change for the better; I might become a very good boy but if the leaders do not come round this will not itself make matters better.
Karan Thapar: Something else also follows from what you are saying that the responsibility for changing the situation for retrieving the lost ground is primarily that of the leaders of the CPM?
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AB Bardhan: I do believe that at the top they are trying their best, they are worried. It has to penetrate down below.
Karan Thapar: And it is not?
AB Bardhan: I don’t know whether it is penetrating down below. I don’t know whether the latest campaign will do so but I only hope it should not be too late.
Karan Thapar: The latest campaign being the rectification campaign that the CPM has launched?
AB Bardhan: Yes, in Communism it means something.
Karan Thapar: But you are also scared that it may be too late.
AB Bardhan: I only wish it is not too late. The latest session by Biman Basu for instance was that even politburo members should not be spared. Even I should not be spared.
Karan Thapar: It has to be acted upon?
AB Bardhan: Yes.
Karan Thapar: At the moment it is only rhetoric.
AB Bardhan: I hope it does not remain mere rhetoric.
Karan Thapar: Then it also follows that if at the end of 18 months the Left does not win another term and is actually defeated. Then the fault and the blame will lie primarily with the CPM leaders?
AB Bardhan: No, we cannot go on blaming them everytime. I am saying that the corrective steps have to be made by them most.
Karan Thapar: But if the corrective step is not made by them then they are to blame.
AB Bardhan: No, if the corrective step is too late then maybe it will not penetrate to the people. People might still think ‘oh you are now talking about all this. You should have done so much before’.
Karan Thapar: In other words the people may be fed up and it may be too late to even correct anything?
AB Bardhan: It is never too late to correct anything. I have seen democratic politics, and politics of vote change in six months. Let me give you an instance because people are talking too much about it. In one seat in Kerala we lost by 16,000 votes in the Assembly elections. During Parliament elections it went up to 19,000 and this time there was a by-election there and came down to 4,500.
Karan Thapar: Except that difference is in Kerala, the Left has a history of winning and losing there. The corruption and arrogance is missing. In Bengal after 32 years, there is no challenge of defeat that you ever faced before.
AB Bardhan: That is what I think went into everyone’s head. Those were the top leaders. It is very difficult for people at the lower levels.
Karan Thapar: At critical levels people began to believe that they would never be defeated. They became complacent, arrogant and corrupt, a terrible combination.
AB Bardhan: I tell you I still believe that they are Communists and they can correct themselves.
Karan Thapar: Atleast on two occasions in the last year, maybe 18 months, I know that the CPI has given two notes to the CPM suggesting a series of steps that need to be taken to rectify this situation and to prevent it reaching the low point it has. What sort of measures you had in mind?
AB Bardhan: I do not know why you are talking of only two notes. We have talked so often and I think more than two notes have been given. Two notes were given only on the issue of the minorities.
Karan Thapar: So there were many notes given to the CPM?
AB Bardhan: Not many notes. Many discussions were made, whether at the all India level or at the state level. In fact you see it is these parties, our parties and the other parties, RSP etc. who insisted that there should be a core committee of the Cabinet. Otherwise what decisions are taken no one knows. There is no collectivity in taking decisions. We have been insisting that Front should function as a Front and not as a party rule.
Karan Thapar: But all of that was ignored or disregarded?
AB Bardhan: I wouldn’t say ignored, but nothing really happened.
Karan Thapar: So you were heard and nothing happened?
AB Bardhan: Yes, we were heard and nothing happened, nothing very substantial happened.
Karan Thapar: So steps that could have rectified the situation have been suggested by you and by the other smaller allies repeatedly over the years, you were heard but nothing happened.
AB Bardhan: I am quite sure inside their party also there must be voices of reason, voices for correction, voices for corrective measures to be taken.
Karan Thapar: Again heard but not acted upon?
AB Bardhan: Not acted upon so much. That is what is hurting so much.
Karan Thapar: Is this an indication of obstinacy or stubbornness within the CPM that they are getting advice internally?
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AB Bardhan: I would not like to use those words. I might say an absence of lack of sensitivity. That is why I am saying that one of the first quality that is necessary is to have your ears to whatever is happening among the people.
Karan Thapar: The CPM leadership got distant from the people?
AB Bardhan: I think so, all of our people got distanced from the people and I will blame them only.
Karan Thapar: As a result, insensitive?
AB Bardhan: Yes.
Karan Thapar: And as a result people like CPI or the smaller party suggestive measures that could have saved the situation, nothing was done?
AB Bardhan: I wouldn’t like to make it appear as if we were the one who were trying to correct every time and they were the ones who were refusing to be corrected. That will be pitting against with others assuming too much that we were the correctors.
Karan Thapar: But the truth?
AB Bardhan: I am not saying that. I am saying that insensitivity became a part of everybody’s behavior.
Karan Thapar: Now I know for a fact that after the General Elections when the Left parties did very badly in Bengal and you were actually surprised by the extent to which your seats had fallen, the CPI formally suggested to CPM that the Left Front government should resign and seek an early mandate. Today many other are saying the same thing. But in May when you proposed this, what response did you get?
AB Bardhan: Formally, I did not propose any such thing. I do not think you can say that I formally proposed.
Karan Thapar: But you bought it up?
AB Bardhan: Need that in writing nor so much you see any discussion with the leadership.
Karan Thapar: But you suggested it.
AB Bardhan: I had a feeling I did suggest but then you see that was not the main thing.
Karan Thapar: But you did suggest it.
AB Bardhan: No, I would not insist on that.
Karan Thapar: You didn’t insist on it but you suggested it?
AB Bardhan: I didn’t insist on that and I don’t insist on it now.
Karan Thapar: At the time when you made this informal suggestion that the Left parties government should resign and seek new mandate, you did also suggest that it would not make sense to look for a new mandate under the Chief Minister. The CPM should consider a new person?
AB Bardhan: No, then I think you are targeting one person. I don’t think we should do so. This is the tendency to somehow put it on the shoulders of somebody. Why it is happening?.
Karan Thapar: The whole leadership should take the blame?
AB Bardhan: Not an individual.
Karan Thapar: In May, this was an informal suggestion that the Left Front government should resign and seek a mandate not a formal suggestion. Today many ministers of the same government are saying it publicly. What is your view?
AB Bardhan: You are emphasising too much on that suggestion and by repeating it you are making it a fact. It is not so. So many things are spoken like that. Accha hoga aagar badal de, that does not mean that it is a very serious suggestion. I do not think I have made it. Today, I do not make it at all because I think now for instance to pre-pone the elections would mean like running away from the battlefield and I do not want to resign now. Now I will face it, now I want to battle it out. I might have lost but please note that there are constituencies in which I have bet 50,000, 60,000, 80,000 votes, those are not negligible votes. I hope to increase them.
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Karan Thapar: So today to call on early election would be like running away from the battlefield.
AB Bardhan: Yes, that is the next heading that will be given in the papers and that is the next thing that you will be speaking in the media.
Karan Thapar: So in other words position of the Left parties in Bengal is a bit like an athlete who knows that he may not win the race but he has to continue to the finishing point otherwise it will be like cutting and running.
AB Bardhan: But you know many times athletes succeed.
Karan Thapar: Those are the golden stories but most of the time those athletes don’t win but they get respect for finishing.
AB Bardhan: I am not talking about only the respect but they also sometimes win and to tell you, Communists are capable of that.
Karan Thapar: That capability depends entirely upon large sections of the CPM, not just the leadership. Realising what has gone wrong and acting upon it to put it right?
AB Bardhan: Yes, that is what is meant by a party. I might be good but if my party and my party ranks are not good then there is no point in me being good.
Karan Thapar: I want to try and understand what you have said just for the audience. In May, it was an informal suggestion?
AB Bardhan: You are still repeating and emphasising the word again and again, giving it a veneer of truth.
Karan Thapar: But today you are against an early election because as you said it will look like running away.
AB Bardhan: And I want to fight. I want to retrieve the situation.
Karan Thapar: Let me then end by asking you a simple question, what do you believe will be the future that faces the Left Front government in Bengal between today and in 2011 when the Assembly elections take place. In the next 18 months what do you think is going to happen?
AB Bardhan: We will establish closer links with the people, we will try to regain their confidence, we will take up their problems, we will try to put up certain issues which have been neglected.
Karan Thapar: Give me an example of the sort of issues that have been neglected which you will now take up?
AB Bardhan: People might think that you have become wiser after the event, but I always say it is better to become wiser after the event then not to become wise at all.
Karan Thapar: Does this include rethinking the industrial policy in Bengal that has become so unpopular?
AB Bardhan: That issue I can tell you. The industrial policy which we thought will bring all sort of modern industries was not the priority that was needed. There are certain existing industries – jute, tea – all this is required to be revived, they are very important.
Karan Thapar: So you are calling for a rethink of the industrial policy?
AB Bardhan: Yes, I believe in industrialisation, but the industrial policies should take note of priorities like what is possible and what is deserved to be done with the least amount of trouble.
Karan Thapar: Is Buddhadeb Bhattacharya who is so committed to this policy, so closely identified with it, willing to rethink something that is almost a part of his personality now?
AB Bardhan: Why not? He is also a member of a collective, he is a member, he is a West Bengal Secretary, he is the member of the CPI-M politburo and he is not alone.
Karan Thapar: Have you addressed this issue with him?
AB Bardhan: I have written about it, I have also talked about it some times.
Karan Thapar: To him directly?
AB Bardhan: I don’t come across him very often. It is not at that level that we meet, my colleagues do meet him those who are in the Cabinet and those who are working in West Bengal.
Karan Thapar: Do they say he is willing to rethink the policy?
AB Bardhan: I don’t know but suggestions are being made and I think there is a rethinking and after Nandigram he did rethink.
Karan Thapar: He now needs to rethink even more comprehensively?
AB Bardhan: Yes, because industrialisation needs to be pursued but in a new way.
Karan Thapar: So in a sense, the future of the Left parties and whatever chance or hope they have of re-winning power in 2011 depends very heavily on this?
AB Bardhan: It does depend, not only on his general behavior and approach towards the people, it is the way you re-forge the links with your people again.
Karan Thapar: And Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has to make sure that his government does it.
AB Bardhan: Don’t write off the government, only yesterday there was a huge rally of more than a lakh in Kolkata. We are there very much.
Karan Thapar: That is the hope that has made you sustain for 18 months; I won’t challenge your hope.
AB Bardhan: It’s not a hope, it will become a reality.
Karan Thapar: Pleasure talking to you.
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